With Khemṅ Khema Sutta (SN 44:1)

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('â', She is wise, competent, intelligent, learned, a fluent speaker, admirable in her ingenuity.â Let your majesty visit her." Then King Pasenadi Kosala went to the Khemṅ the nun and, on arrival, having bowed down to her, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to her, "Now then, lady, does the Tathṅgata exist after death?" "That, great king, has not been declared by the Blessed One: ),

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('â', The Tathṅgata exists after death.â" "Well then, lady, does the Tathṅgata not exist after death?" "Great king, that too has not been declared by the Blessed One: ),

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('â', The Tathṅgata does not exist after death.â" "Then does the Tathṅgata both exist and not exist after death?" "That has not been declared by the Blessed One: ),

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('â', The Tathṅgata both exists and does not exist after death.â" "Well then, does the Tathṅgata neither exist nor not exist after death?" "That too has not been declared by the Blessed One: ),

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('â', The Tathṅgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.â" "Now, lady, when asked if the Tathṅgata exists after death, you say, ),

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('â', That has not been declared by the Blessed One: "The Tathṅgata exists after death."â When asked if the Tathṅgata does not exist after death⦠both exists and does not exist after death⦠neither exists nor does not exist after death, you say, ),

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('â', That too has not been declared by the Blessed One: "The Tathṅgata neither exists nor does not exist after death."â Now, what is the cause, what is the reason, why that has not been declared by the Blessed One?" "Very well, then, great king, I will question you in return about this very same matter. Answer as you see fit. What do you think, great king? Do you have an accountant or calculator or mathematician who can count the grains of sand in the river Ganges as ),

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('â', so many grains of sandâ or ),

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('â', so many hundreds of grains of sandâ or ),

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('â', so many thousands of grains of sandâ or ),

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('â', so many hundreds of thousands of grains of sandâ?" "No, lady." "Then do you have an accountant or calculator or mathematician who can count the water in the great ocean as ),

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('â', so many buckets of waterâ or ),

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('â', so many hundreds of buckets of waterâ or ),

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('â', so many thousands of buckets of waterâ or ),

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('â', so many hundreds of thousands of buckets of waterâ?" "No, lady. Why is that? The great ocean is deep, boundless, hard to fathom." "Even so, great king, any physical form by which one describing the Tathṅgata would describe him: That the Tathṅgata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, great king, the Tathṅgata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the ocean. ),

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('â', The Tathṅgata exists after deathâ doesnât apply. ),

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('â', The Tathṅgata doesnât exist after deathâ doesnât apply. ),

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('â', The Tathṅgata both exists and doesnât exist after deathâ doesnât apply. ),

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('â', The Tathṅgata neither exists nor doesnât exist after deathâ doesnât apply. "Any feeling⦠Any perception⦠Any fabrications⦠"Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathṅgata would describe him: That the Tathṅgata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness, great king, the Tathṅgata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the ocean. ),

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('â', The Tathṅgata exists after deathâ doesnât apply. ),

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('â', The Tathṅgata doesnât exist after death doesnât apply. ),

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('â', The Tathṅgata both exists and doesnât exist after deathâ doesnât apply. ),

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('â', The Tathṅgata neither exists nor doesnât exist after deathâ doesnât apply."1 Then King Pasenadi Kosala, delighting in & approving of Khemṅ the nunâs words, got up from his seat, bowed down to her and—keeping her to his right—departed. Then at another time he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there [he asked the Blessed One the same questions he had asked Khemṅ the nun, and received precisely the same responses and analogies. Then he exclaimed:] "Amazing, lord! Astounding! How the meaning and phrasing of the teacher and disciple agree, coincide, and do not diverge from one another with regard to the supreme teaching! Recently, lord, I went to Khemṅ the nun and, on arrival, asked her about this matter, and she answered me with the same words, the same phrasing, as the Blessed One. Amazing, lord! Astounding! How the meaning and phrasing of the teacher and disciple agree, coincide, and do not diverge from one another with regard to the supreme teaching! "Now, lord, we must go. Many are our duties, many our responsibilities." "Then do, great king, what you think it is now time to do." So King Pasenadi Kosala, delighting in and approving of the Blessed Oneâs words, got up from his seat, bowed down to the Blessed One and—keeping him to his right—departed. Note 1. The Commentary and Sub-commentary are not satisfied to let this passage stand, and try to describe the Tathṅgataâs indescribability. To paraphrase: He is freed from the classification of form, etc., because for him there will be no arising of form, etc., in the future (i.e., after death). He is deep in the depth of his character and the depth of his qualities. As for any description in terms of ),

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('â', a beingâ that might be used in relation to the Tathṅgata with such deep qualities, when one sees the non-existence of the description ),

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('â', being,â owing to the (future) non-existence of the aggregates, one sees that the four statements with regard to the Tathṅgata after death are invalid. This explanation, which borrows from Sister Vajirṅâs verse in SN 5:10, misses an important point raised in SN 22:36 and SN 23:2. In SN 22:36 the Buddha states that one is measured and classified by what one is obsessed with. If one is not obsessed with anything, then one is not measured or classified by it in the here and now. In SN 23:2 the Buddha points out that the term "being" applies only where there is craving and passion. The Tathṅgata, freed from craving and passion, is thus not a "being," and so is indescribable in the present, even though he obviously still functions in the present. SN 22:86 elaborates on this point in great detail. Another problem raised by the Commentaryâs explanation for this sutta is how it would define the Tathṅgataâs qualities and character, for what are they composed of aside from aggregates? See also: MN 63; MN 72 ## SN 44:2 = SN 22:86 - --> - - - -